People are still bombarding my email box with letters about the subject of too much reverence. Some of them want to know where Stifled in Springfield 's ward is so they can move there. It's obvious that the things some people consider to be problems are considered blessings by others.

We've got some good letters today, so I'll let Meridian 's readers speak for themselves;

Wow!  I never thought there was such a thing as too much reverence.  I have no suggestions that don't involve mass rebellion, other than maybe someone could speak to the stake president about the issue. 

My ward is very friendly and I have often thought maybe a little too friendly in the chapel, especially before sacrament meeting when we should be preparing for the meeting and for taking the sacrament.  After reading about this situation I will not be so judgmental about all those who are visiting and just be glad that there is so much love and caring between the ward members. 

I would also like to point out to the good bishop of that ward that although in a perfect world his members are all attending church because it is the right thing to do, there are some members who are in need of fellowship and interaction with the other members.  I have a nonmember spouse, so I attend church alone.  There was a Sunday that I had decided that I was going home after sacrament meeting because I was tired of sitting alone and being overlooked by others.  A good sister came over and spoke to me and sat with me and entirely changed my attitude. 

Who knows what would have happened if I had gone home that day?  I am grateful to that sister each time I think about that day. 

Maybe something similar is going on in his ward.  Does he want to be responsible for someone going home and maybe not coming back?  I doubt it.  Sundays are the only time that some members get to interact at all with other members.  That needs to be encouraged, not discouraged.  He should also maybe think about the impression being made on people who are visiting, either with the missionaries or perhaps considering a move.  That situation could provide an unwelcoming atmosphere and possibly contribute to others' already distorted views of the Church.  And we all know we don't need any more of that! 

I fully support reverence in the chapel.  I don't think it should be enforced by the reverence Nazis.  It is a choice that is made by each member each Sunday. 

Pamela
Raleigh, North Carolina

Thanks for writing, Pamela. You're right — although in a perfect world we would be attending church solely to be edified spiritually, there are many ward members who are as thirsty for human kindness as my plants are thirsty for any form of liquid nourishment. It's not our place to judge the motives of the people who are worshipping next to us. We should be able to find a way to fill the needs of those who need love as well as those who crave reverence.

I am a 70-year-old sister who deals with this issue weekly.  Last week we had a 97-year-old brother berate the ward members in his "testimony" for their irreverence, and noise masking the prelude music. 

As a convert in my 30's, I was shocked by the noise and irreverence I experienced my first Sundays coming to church.  I soon became as friendly as everyone else. 

Since 30+ years of this issue have not resolved it, I will make a few suggestions. It is true that we are in a sacred place inside the chapel. I am far from perfect in this regard, but will share my thoughts.  I try to go early enough to visit in the narthex (what we refer to as the foyer, outside the chapel doors).  I quietly approach a sister or brother to greet them before they get to the chapel.  My speech can be whispered, and a hug, smile or handshake is not noisy.

Appointments can be made by phone, when I can write down the date and time to help me remember it and have my calendar handy to help with conflicts. My opinion is that expressing appreciation to a speaker can be done as we leave the chapel, when we are no longer establishing the ambience of sacred preparation. It probably needs to be done in the chapel as our Primary children are lined up in the hall with their arms folded, trying to be quiet and reverent, as we noisily file out of the chapel.  What kind of a double message are we sending? 

I love the time for sharing with my friends and new members, and think this is very important. Perhaps the best way is with quiet voices, a reminder to make a phone call or to write a note before the day is over and it is forgotten.  I will look forward to others' suggestions. 

A.K.Miller  

Good letter, Sister Miller. It was instructive to all of us that you've been dealing with this issue for 30+ years and still haven't resolved it. Some issues in life may not be resolvable, except by an increase of love to the people who act as we would act, and equally to the ones who don't do what we would hope they do.

What an interesting letter. I know I have felt frustrated in my previous ward and in my new ward through a lack of reverence.

I was inspired my Elder Oaks' talk in conference comparing sacrament meeting to attending the temple and that we should prepare ourselves accordingly. That is my goal. But, I certainly can see that reverence for the sacrament can be taken too far. We should be able to greet each other and become one as saints outside the chapel after sacrament meeting.  

I must take exception with the statement that Stifled has close personal friends that she hasn't spoken to in over a year. How can that be true? If they are such close friends, there must be a way to meet and speak with them outside of church.

If the bishop won't allow them to speak to each other in church, they will have to make ways to speak to each other outside of church, such as dinners with friends, visiting teaching and home teaching families, lunches, play dates, work projects, humanitarian projects. And don't overlook the parking lot after the meetings.

And what about the phone, email, letters? Friendship takes effort and it is worth the work. It doesn't only happen on Sunday.

Hoping for More Silence in Auburn

You're right, Hoping. Friendship does take work. Thanks for sending a list of ways we can make the effort.

For what it's worth, I can easily see how people in the Church can have close friends they haven't spoken to in more than a year. As we move from ward to ward, we make close ties. Even I, who have lived in my current ward since 1987, have friends whom I still consider to be close friends, even though we haven't actually exchanged words in a year or more. So many friends, so little time.

In social networking it is essential that many (all?) be given the opportunity for many short, casual interactions.  A quick conversation, a hello, a handshake, a hug, make up the social networking fuel that I burn.

I go to church to be taught the gospel, to partake of the sacrament, to renew covenants — but along with that, the precious socializing time with my brothers and sisters is essential.

I recently read about “success” at conventions.  What the researchers found was that the best connections and most valuable conversations were not at the formal classes or seminars, but at the lunch tables, in the break rooms, and during the time between classes when folks would meet and visit.

Bill Hall
Batavia, Illinois

What a great point, Bill! I couldn't have said it nearly as well. For one thing, you said what you had to say without pointing fingers at anybody.

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the biggest beefs the Pharisees had during Jesus' earthly ministry was that He had too much fun. They didn't put it that way, of course, but they didn't like His friends or his interactions with them. They didn't think he was reverent enough.

I'm not advocating irreverence by any means, but if 1 Corinthians 13 is to be believed, compassion is even more important. I'm hoping we can all find a way to strike a balance.

Here are several short letters that advocate extremely different actions. We'll let you decide which letters have the advice you'd choose to follow:

I always thought reverence was "more than just quietly sitting"— to quote a Primary song. And where there is a time and a place to be reverent — while the sacrament is being passed — there is also a time to be joyful and celebrate that you have friends in the gospel.

I don't think the three-hour block is supposed to be all social hours, but remember what all members need: “a friend, a responsibility, and nourishment by the word of God.” How can any of those exist in forced silence? I am shocked that members have simply allowed their bishop to tell them what to do. While I don't usually advocate mutiny, it seems the only choice left is to stand up for what they know is right. I'm sure the dirty looks will be worth it to those new families who are wondering why no one speaks to them.

A Reader Who Has Been There Done That, No Thanks

Thanks for your letter, No Thanks. I especially appreciated your quoting of the Primary song, and your observation about a “time for joy.” That's the way I think of greeting friends in church every Sunday.

In the words of Monty Python, “Now for something completely different”:

Sounds like you have done all there is to do and the only thing left to do is to support your bishop. You have expressed your concern to your bishop and ward council. Maybe instead of the bishop having a “blind spot,” possibly he has an '”inspired” spot.

Would it be possible to invite our friends and/or investigators over into your home (slip them a note) or even arrange HT and VT by phone? Sorry this isn't a lifeline, but I find when counsel is given that we don't necessarily agree with we put our blinders on and focus on how it can't be done. I think the Brother of Jared is a good example of how it can be done — worth a read.

DR

Thanks for your letter, DR. It reminded me of a quote from Elder Neal A. Maxwell that went the rounds recently, while some church members were at odds over California 's Proposition 8. It said, in part:

Make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters, in the months and years ahead, events are likely to require each member to decide whether or not he will follow the First Presidency.  Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had “never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional or political life.”

I know a bishop isn't on the same level as the First Presidency, but I like to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if I could consciously defy something a bishop asked me to do — although I do admit that in my ward I often get carried up in the moment and chatter away when if I thought about it I'd know my bishop would prefer I keep my mouth shut.

Here's another reader who agrees with your position:

Acknowledging a friend or family member with a nod and a smile is in order, but catching up on family news, arranging meetings, and poring over photos while standing in the halls, can be done by phone or personal visits. New members can be fellowshipped in Relief Society, priesthood meetings and home visits.

No, you do not have my sympathy.

Meridian reader in Oregon

Thanks for writing, Oregon . You speak for a lot of church members, and I appreciate what you have to say.

Read on for the thoughts of a reader who makes her point with humor:

After reading the article, all I could say was "Oh my."   

My answer to "Stifled in Springfield " is get up and leave the chapel when you want, and talk outside the chapel to whomever you want.  This article reminded me of when I attended the Relief Society broadcast in one of the stakes in Lehi , Utah , and upon entering the chapel I remarked to my daughter that "this place sounds like a hen house."

When in the chapel you really do need to be reverent and be considerate of others, but outside the walls of the chapels it's fair game.  We are a social people, and social people yak it up — otherwise we'd be drinkers!

Eleanor J. Smith Maller
Westbank, British Columbia

Your letter wins the humor award today, Eleanor. You gave me a laugh I sorely needed.

I remember attending the very first Relief Society broadcast, ages and ages ago. I did embroidery in those days, and I took a landscape canvas with me so I could quietly sew as I waited for the broadcast to begin. The ward Relief Society president and her daughter sat directly in front of me, and when the president saw what I was doing she just about ripped my head off. Doing embroidery was so inappropriate in the chapel that it bordered on sacrilege.

Chastened, I put my embroidery away. Instead I spent the time listening to the Relief Society president and her daughter “yakking it up” for the twenty minutes or so before the meeting began. After the meeting started and they couldn't talk anymore, one of them pulled out a nail-clipper, and the two of them clipped their nails while the speakers were speaking. One of the fingernail clippings sailed through the air and landed on the embroidery that was folded in my lap.

That was the day I learned that irreverence is in the eye of the beholder.

Read on for a reminder that if it's too reverent in your ward, you should cherish the experience:

Consider this your once in a lifetime opportunity to experience reverence in an LDS environment.  Indeed you have a rare opportunity that most members have never had and never will experience.

Once your bishop/stake president is gone you will never again have to face such restrictions. Just maybe they know something that the "reverence rebels" don't know. 

Most wards have plenty of activities and social events where talking and socializing are encouraged.  And you can always call new members and invite them to your home.

John Daly
Orlando, Florida

You're right, John — reverence does seem to be the exception rather than the rule. I guess we should cherish it when it comes.

One of the things my husband and I have come to realize is that there are two types of leadership in the church. Both are very necessary. One we call "bricks and mortar." That type of bishop will see that every calling is filled. He administers a program.

The other type builds on the foundation laid by bricks and mortar. He adds the light fixtures and window coverings. We haven't come up with a good name for him. He doesn't worry so much about whether every calling is filled or what the statistics look like. He ministers to a people. It appears that "Stifled" has a bricks and mortar bishop.

When I was set apart as activities director in my new bricks and mortar ward, I got the impression that I was to increase the number of activities and to allow the members to have an opportunity to just talk to one another and to create bonds; no "program." I was impressed that they need the time and opportunity to become "one."

I don't have the answer for Stifled if she is hoping to change the bishop's attitude toward conversation other than take it to the Lord. If she is looking for a way to help ward members get the chance to talk to one another, nothing beats a monthly potluck. They could be held even more often if they wanted to, and in these cost conscious times they cost very little.

I hope this will help.

A Member in the Mission Field

Thanks for writing, Mission Field. You and your husband have made the same observation that Clark and I have made, but we call them by different names — organizers and ministers. We've noticed that once you've had a minister in for a term or two, things have pretty much fallen apart, organization-wise. But then an organizer comes in and tidies things up so that the next minister can come in and embrace the congregation with love.

President Hinckley may have been the closest I've ever seen to having both the organizer and ministerial qualities. He may have been born an organizer (and I could be wrong on that because I only observed him on television), but by the end of his life he was just as good at the ministerial function. Most of us will never achieve that balance.

If you refer to the organizers as “bricks and mortar” bishops, maybe you could refer to the ministers as “hearth and home” bishops. Just a thought!

I love the hugs and waves between meetings, but it is pretty sad when we get so noisy we can't hear the music. Whispering is a great way to help this. How about we just whisper back when someone else talks to us, or ask them if we could phone them later?

This was interesting to me in that no one mentioned about the other challenge in between meetings or even during meetings. It is our youngest saints, bless their active, noisy hearts!

When it seems that children maybe haven't been given enough parental correct examples and training so they feel they have been "let loose" to run through the halls, often literally crashing into other people (someone catch Great Grandma!), or expected by their parents to "sit still and be quiet" when the parents have apparently totally forgotten how hard that is for kids, especially when the talk is way over their heads.

Parents could provide at least a piece of paper and a pencil. Better yet is to have the kids prepare a little envelope that a parent brings to church that has in it pictures they let the kids cut out from the church book store sales catalogs — to look through and sort so they can keep their thoughts on the Savior during the sacrament at least. This costs nothing and helps the kids prepare for being reverent.

We can even do this for the children on the neighboring benches. I love to see the smiles I get when I offer an envelope with the directions printed on the front of it —"reverence pictures to look at quietly and return to Sister ______."

Whispering Music Lover

What a nice idea, Whispering — to give reverence envelopes to children instead of just giving them dirty looks!

I suspect the reason that nobody in these letters has mentioned the kidlets is that we went through a long, long period of reverence letters a year ago. We have no need to revisit that because everything was said that could be said. But if you want to go over what was said then, click here and scroll down to “Parting Thoughts on Reverence.” That and the four articles after it will tell you more than you ever wanted to read on the subject.

I read with interest the article today about reverence in the chapel, and one writer said one reason they had a problem was because the other ward in the building was always late from 15-20 minutes! Why is this being allowed? It happens in our ward too. We have three units meeting back to back, and I try to get to the chapel early for a moment to focus my thoughts but another ward who should be out of the building is having choir practice till we are ready to start. Our organist can't even play prelude music!

Our halls are packed with people from the other two wards and you can't prepare for a lesson by getting the chalk board erased or pictures up!

When you go into the room for your lessons, people from the other wards are chatting in there!

If the respective Bishops can't make sure the meetings start and end on time, what are they doing? Why not? I say when the time is up say a quick prayer and leave! Can you imagine a prophet starting a meeting late? If they are running late, we're not preparing well. I'm sorry to be so negative but it affects my ability to enjoy church every week. Is this fair to me? If the building is so packed, why can't we get another location?

Frustrated on the East Coast

I know what you're talking about, Frustrated. I, too, go to church in a meetinghouse where three wards meet back to back. It's almost impossible to hear lessons when people are chatting happily in the hallways and the foyer — but as much as the chatting annoys me when other people do it, I'm guilty between our own meetings. I haven't yet figured out a solution. Maybe I'll be a church architect in my next life.

I'm reminded of a couple of different stories after reading Stifled's predicament. My first thought was the story of the frog and the two pots of water — a story so familiar that I'm sure I don't need to recount it.

My second thought was that of a story a dear gospel doctrine teacher told. He recalled moving into a ward where they had just gone through a similar situation. They had a new “crop” of deacons who all seemed to turn 12 within the same month, so in teaching them what to do when passing the sacrament the bishop pointed out that they should all wear white shirts. The next Sunday they all showed up in white shirts, although some wore white polo shirts, some white dress shirts, some a white undershirt, some a wore them tucked others untucked.

Meeting with them again, the bishop pointed out that they all needed to wear their shirts tucked, and not to wear just an undershirt. And that maybe they should all wear a coat and tie, with black dress shoes. The next Sunday, they wore what was asked of them, but some wore bow ties, others wore their little brother's tie, some wore their fathers tie, some wore dress pants, others wore blue jeans, or khakis.

You guessed it, another meeting with the bishop and he suggested that they all wear the same thing, and after thinking about it for a minute suggested that they all just come about 15 minutes early the next Sunday and he thought he knew of something in storage that would work nicely.

The next Sunday the boys arrived 15 minutes early and the bishop had them change into an “outfit” of all white. He mentioned that since the sacrament was important and the symbolism behind it was important, that those who passed it needed to be dressed in a way that reflected that importance, so he decided that only those boys who could fit into the all white suits could pass the sacrament, and that the boys who blessed the sacrament needed to purchase white suits.

No one complained or said a word about it. Many even mentioned that the boys looked good in all white — until the stake president came for ward conference and noticed this. He immediately asked the boys to change into the clothes they brought with them, and went to speak with the bishop about it. It took some doing, but the stake president was able to help the bishop and the ward members see that the way the bishop was handling things was not the way the Lord would have things handled.

It seems that someone in Stifled's ward has taken a good reminder (taking the sacrament is the main reason we attend our meetings, and we should be reverent in doing so) and tried to improve upon it to the point that they are now looking beyond the mark.

My ward also shares the building with another ward, so we are asked to remember they are having their sacrament meeting at the same time we are letting out of our block of meetings. And when it is our turn to meet late there is a sign put up in the corner of the chapel that reminds us to be reverent in the chapel. Once when the organist kept increasing the volume of the organ to compensate for the loud conversations held before the meeting, she was told to play softer. I can't tell you how that improved our reverence problem.

There are so many different options the bishop has when trying to deal with a reverence issue that as long as the problem isn't one of not being reverent enough, he may not realize that the opposite problem has occurred. Would it be possible to speak with the person who is in charge of dismissing the congregation by groups and suggesting some of the wonderful ideas already mentioned? Or perhaps speaking with some of those who treasure a moment or two to speak with each other and suggest going to the bishop together and after mentioning the topic to him, in humility asking him to pray about it.

I don't think it would be necessary to go into a lot of detail with him about the problem as you have already said that it has been mentioned to him and he doesn't see a problem. So perhaps if a few of you asked to meet with him (thus showing him that it isn't just one person, but that you few are representative of others), then very briefly explaining that the reason you have come to him together was to ask him to pray about how the need for reverence can be balanced with the need to be friendly at church while still respecting the needs of other wards in the building. Ask him to pray about it because there a few who are beginning to feel stifled in a place where love is supposed to be fostered and that you few feel that as things are going now it is turning into a sore spot for a formerly friendly ward. Or something along those lines.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that if you ask him to pray about it, and if it really is an issue for the ward, he will no longer have the blind spot about it that he currently has.

Tonya in Texas

Thanks for a great letter, Tonya. Asking the bishop to pray about something is the best idea I've heard out of a lot of terrific ideas that have been put forth here. Once the bishop has prayed about something and has received insight regarding that matter, discussion should be over. After all, the buck stops with him.

My favorite talk about reverence is by Boyd K. Packer called "Reverence Invites Revelation" ( Ensign , Nov 1991, 21).

I consider myself a very friendly person and I love to talk and socialize. It wasn't until I read this talk that I realized that talking in the chapel at all was affecting my brothers and sisters in a negative way.

Elder Packer tells us that our purpose in going to church is to learn the doctrines of the gospel, and it should be done in a spirit of reverence. Elder Packer then goes on to explain how reverence relates to revelation.

When I read this talk I was amazed. When you go to pray for revelation, do you go to the noisiest room in the house? Why not? It is because your mind is distracted and you cannot focus. It takes intense spiritual focus to gain clear revelation. By being irreverent and talking in the Lord's house, we may distract others from getting a clear answer to their prayers.

The reason I was talking to the people in my branch was because I loved cared about them and I wanted to show it. I have now learned that it would be better for me to enter the chapel quietly and sit in my seat and reverently ponder the prelude music or my scriptures.

I believe the chapel should compare to the celestial room in the temple. How would that help your ward if you had a place you could come every week as sacred as the temple? Maybe you would be now as the most righteous ward in the stake instead!

We try to have all the teachers go to the classrooms first so that they can be there before their students so they are not in their alone. We use the end of the postlude music as a signal that everyone can leave.

Also if there are other classes going on, let them have their revelation too, and whisper in the halls. 

Faye from Hermitage, Pennsylvania

Thanks for your letter, Faye. So many people have quoted President Packer's conference talk that I'm attaching a link to it here. Also, he has a new book on gospel principles, titled Mine Errand from the Lord. If the excerpts I've read are any indication, it's a dynamite book.

As for wishing our chapels were as silent as the celestial room in the temple, I had to smile over that one. As I've been on duty in the celestial room of our temple over the years, I've heartily wished that our celestial room were as silent as the Alamo . I've heard everything from people's intimate medical procedures to accounts of children's soccer games bouncing off the celestial room walls, and I even had a patron try to convince me of the similarities of the Church to “Star Trek.” There's such a thing as having a room too acoustically perfect!

That's all for this week. Tune in next week to see what Meridian readers have to say about life, the universe, and everything.

Until next week — Kathy

Wicked men obey from fear; good men, from love.

Aristotle