Last week's column featured a letter from a father who had unsuccessfully married a woman whom he described as an overachiever. He was worried lest his younger son follow his example, and wondered if Meridian readers had any advice.

As you can imagine, Meridian readers were more than happy to oblige. Their letters fit in two categories — those who question the term overachievers , and those who consider themselves to be overachievers, and who say their lives have suffered because of it.

First we'll hear from the readers who wonder if the term overachievers may be an incorrect assumption. Here's what they had to say:

The term overachiever is interesting because it contains an assumption — that someone is doing too much, pushing too far, too much of something is involved.  What if, in fact, these so-called overachievers are simply competent and hardworking?  What if the best term is really that they are achievers who find joy in diligence and the vigor of using their talents in worthwhile causes? 

I say this because Worrying Dad has an assumption in his letter that his former wife fell into depression because she wasn't in the limelight — that she, in fact, had a false motivation for her drive. He implies that it was dashed pride for her as he began to have accomplishments.  

Perhaps, instead, she fell into depression because she could feel the very essence of herself be unfulfilled without the opportunity to use some of her most valued talents.  So many women have to shelve some of the best that is in them because their vitality and leadership are not needed or validated.  We may even send the message culturally that women's sphere has certain limitations and a high-achieving woman is either self-centered or proud, rather than giving her best to a good cause.

The other assumption that concerns me in this letter is that in marriage a choice must be made — that both partners cannot excel and stretch to their highest potential.  If that were true, what a sorry trap marriage would be for one or the other.  That would be like setting up a win-lose situation — which, as we know, so often becomes a lose-lose.  Surely as children of God both partners in a marriage should stretch to the most that is in them.  In fact, ultimately, aren't all of us in the kingdom of God invited to be achievers?

Musing in Midvale

You make good points, Musing. I just taught a Young Women lesson on finding a spouse, and one point the lesson made is that we should not be unequally yoked. You all know the analogy. If one ox is stronger, the team doesn't work. One of the pair has to pull the other along, and the team never gets where it's going.

The scriptures talk about Eve being a “help meet” for Adam, with “meet” meaning “equivalent to” or “fitted” for him. If a husband is someone who strives to do his best, shouldn't the wife be doing her best in her own sphere? Of course, maybe the best way a wife could be a help “meet” for her husband would be to support him in his career. Lots of wives have done that, and happily. It all depends on the husband and the wife.

Read on for another view:

I think it's possible for two high achievers to have a successful marriage.  I also think it's possible for it to fail.  That's a scary possibility for anybody. There will be challenges.

Many of the problems center on how the wife learns to accept where her adoring attentions will be coming from.  I've lived in a place where I've been praised at work for being high achieving and a hard worker. Then I moved to Utah , and there were more hard working individuals than I was used to where I worked. I felt like I had gone from being above average to average.  That can deflate an ego.

The thing is, hopefully the couple will realize that they need to shift some priorities together.  I think it's vitally important for the husband to speak his wife's love language (and vice versa), especially when she feels unimportant and stuck in the thankless drudgery of housework and diapers.  One validating thing my husband told me was, "I don't know how you do it. I could never do what you do. You are the best wife and mother ."   Remind your son to build his wife up.

Kids are demanding, but the attention and love they give you are so much better the recognitions from the world.  I think praying for a young mother would do wonders.

There are many contributing factors in why a marriage may or may not work.  Being high achieving doesn't have to be a death sentence.

Erica in Michigan

Thanks for giving us your first-person experience, Erica. A lot of times our self-perception can hinge on something as trivial as being a fish from a small pond that moves to a bigger one. Once you see there are others around you who are equally competent, that can be an unpleasant surprise.

The thing about your letter that struck me was the part about spouses speaking each other's “love languages.” I've seen that in other relationships as well. We all want to be paid in the currency that's most important to us as individuals. For many people, that currency is money. Others want fame or admiration or self-acceptance or encouragement or love or any one of a number of rewards.

One of the biggest mistakes we can make in human relationships is to assume that anyone — your employee, your wife, your student, or anyone else in your life — wants to be rewarded in the same way that is important to you. If a husband and wife can determine what form of recognition is important to the other, and can give that recognition as often as possible, they stand an excellent chance of forming a mutually satisfying partnership.

Read on for the observations of a grandmother who had the same fears when her high-achieving son married a woman who was equally energetic:

My oldest son and his wife are both "high achievers" (I don't care for overachievers — too negative).  I worried at times that their achievements would be difficult for their children to live up to.  To have one parent who appears to be able to do anything he sets his mind to is one thing, but both parents? 

Well, the children are doing just fine and achieving their own goals in life.  The secret for this couple, I believe, is that much of their achievements are in service to others.  Everyone seems to turn to them for help and advice on a myriad of needs.  My son loves the outdoors and the pursuit of better survival skills.  He shares that with the Scouts, his community, and with a mountain search and rescue team.  My daughter-in-law is creative and helps when called upon with social  activities, theater productions, and endless callings within the Church as well. She is now working with our high school and community cultural center for all school and community activities within that center.  Both have a strong testimony and knowledge of the gospel — which they readily share whenever called upon.  Both have the ability to see a need before asked and roll up their sleeves.  Their energy level is the envy of all. (Best cleaners and movers in town, should the need arise!)  If a couple can pull together as they each reach for their own potential, I believe as "overachievers" they are truly blessed as are all that come in contact with them.

V Joyce Miles

Thanks for your perspective, Joyce. You hit upon an important point — that if our energies are channeled in service to others, we'll be far more likely to live a balanced life — and to be happier in the process.

Here's a letter from a reader who is firmly convinced that there is more than one way to live a happy life. Let's see what she has to say:

Just for background, I'm not a frustrated feminist. I am profoundly committed to the principles set forth in the Proclamation on the Family, a stay-at-home wife and mother of 31 years, and now stay-with-elderly-parents-at-home daughter. I don't regret what I've done, but I will say, looking back, I think I could have made other, equally good choices without hurting anyone or violating the Proclamation. After years of wrestling with the issue you bring up, at our house we now try to live by the rule, “No villains, no victims.” Each person takes responsibility for his/her own choices, and tries not to look for someone to either blame or to rescue, or be rescued by.

To your question: It's not just the women you need to worry about, and how difficult you fear they will be for your darling boy. (villain/victim)

It sounds to me like you were competing with your first wife, and when you couldn't win on her court, you took her where she would never have another home game. Some men don't know what to do with parallel success of their wives, so they remove the things that give their lives purpose and joy. They honestly think that watching them (the husbands) succeed should be the only fulfillment the wives would ever require in life.  They are attracted to a woman's dynamism, feel lucky to have won such a prize, and then expect to replace her whole world with their own accomplishments. Maybe that's not you, but if it is, you're not the only one.

In my experienced opinion, you're asking all the wrong questions.  Here are just a few of the questions it might be more profitable for you to ask:

• Why did you take your wife so far out of her habitat? 
• Why did she agree to it?
• What purpose is served by describing your first wife's ambitions as a need for “applause?”
• Why did you (in your letter) cast her accomplishments in the light of shallow, ego-driven attention-getting gestures (working the crowd versus greeting beloved friends), rather than substantial, satisfying achievements?           
• How do we raise daughters to be joyful, talented contributors to society without feeling that they have to hide their light under a bushel in order not to threaten our insecure, immature sons?
• Do we send a deeply contradictory message to our daughters that they should get all the education they possibly can, and then not work outside the home unless absolutely necessary?  This same message tells our sons that if the wife works, it's because the men aren't providing well enough.
• How do we acknowledge the elevated role of mother teaching in the home as one that requires all possible education beforehand, and continuing on-the-job training?
• How do we raise sons manly enough to walk beside a help “meet” for them, rather than require a mate who is a passive follower?
• How do we teach our young married children to consider all decisions in terms of what's best for “our union, our family” rather than “my turn, your turn?”
• How do we teach true masculinity and femininity according to the Lord's values rather than the world's?
• How can we learn/teach to negotiate and strive for solutions that serve both parties individually and as a family unit?

Instead of “worrying” about finding a way out for your son when he encounters the innate struggles of marriage, think about ways to truly strengthen him as a Godly husband if he should be so blessed to find a wife with whom he can be evenly yoked.

Amazingly Graced in Southern Utah

You ask good questions, Amazingly. What you say about removing the villain/victime scenario from our lives can help us on a lot of fronts. Thanks for writing.

Here's a letter that's short and sweet:

My advice is to marry someone that understands and will understand that their worth cannot be based on comparison with others'. Also, remember that everyone is capable of different things. Some are able to handle more of one thing than someone who can handle more of something else.

Anonymous

You make a good point, Anonymous. There isn't a recipe book for human beings. All of are different, with different weaknesses and strengths. I really hope that young people will focus more on knowing a potential spouse than they do on planning the wedding dress or dreaming about that first car. Marriage is a tricky proposition even when we go into it with both eyes open.

Finally we end with four letters from people who consider themselves overachievers, and who have advice that comes from their own experience:

How can the man who wrote the letter be sure he isn't worried over nothing?  Over-anything — from overeating, to oversleeping, to overuse of medications or drugs, to over exercising, to overachieving — can never be ascribed to one simple cause.  Different people cope with their issues in different ways. 

I was the “overachiever” wife in a first failed marriage.  It has taken me a long time to stop defining my success or worth by what others tell me. 

It was a really hard landing when I wasn't able to gauge my progress by my GPA.  I married a man who was never satisfied with anything I did.  I was going to win him over — the way I have never won over my own mother.  I'm sure the reasons for seeking approval in achieving are as varied as the individuals who demonstrate that behavior.  The source is different because the person is different.  The reaction or response when that coping mechanism is challenged will be different. 

Probably the best thing this man can do for his son is instill an attitude that will not be dismissive of counseling and cognitive therapy as valuable tools in overcoming setbacks.  Whether personally or as a couple, getting help from a trained professional with shared values can unlock the chains that unhealthy thinking and behavior can create. 

Worried Dad shouldn't expect his son's wife to be a basket case any more than he should expect her to be perfect in every way.  He should be able to expect that she would have a commitment to his son and their marriage.  He could expect her to have the inclination to recognize where she needs help to get through issues that perhaps were easy to avoid or ignore as a single person but become apparent in marriage.  His son should be prepared to reciprocate those commitments. 

A Reader in Idaho

Thanks for your perspective, Reader. It's interesting to think that sometimes we have no idea why we do the things we do — such as you experienced in trying to win over your husband because you couldn't win over your mother.

As much as we think we know ourselves, sometimes we're just as cloudy about our own motives than we are about the motives of others. It's just a reminder that we are never able to accurately judge others, no matter how well we think we know them.

My own marriage of 20 years ended sadly when my husband calmly told me he just couldn't live with me anymore. He wanted out of the marriage, he said, not because he didn't love me anymore, but because he never felt he was good enough to please me.

I couldn't have been more shocked. There had been no arguing, no fighting, and there was no "other woman." We still had two of our five children at home. It was difficult for him to put into words the "whys" of what had brought him to reach that decision, but it turned out  he  believed  I  didn't think he was good enough for me.

I was dumbfounded. There was no conscious thought on my part that he was inferior to me in any respect. I believed with all my heart that throughout our marriage I had continually complimented him, encouraged him and supported him in all his endeavors. But what I saw as suggestions, opinions and advice, he saw as nagging or complaining and felt my "corrections" (as in "Honey, why don't you do it this way") were criticisms.

What hurt me the most was to learn he had let those feelings, founded or unfounded, build up in him so long that by the time he finally voiced his concerns there was no chance of resolving them short of divorce. He refused counseling until our daughter pleaded with him to go, but in the first (and only) session he told the counselor there was nothing, absolutely nothing, that I could do at that point to make him want to even try to keep the marriage together. He simply wanted out. He wanted to go off on his own with no further responsibilities towards me as his wife, or our children. He didn't want anyone telling him what to do or when or how to do it. He wanted to "do his own thing," and 12 years later he is still single and happily living a bachelor's life.

We are friends and because I don't want our children to feel they have to take turns spending the holidays with us, I invite him to my house for holiday dinners and family gatherings. I, too, have remained single and am thankful we can continue to get along and respect each other's differences, but I now believe the break-up was inevitable. With the advantage of hindsight, I see now that without even realizing it, I had become the self-appointed overseer in our family. I not only saw to the needs of the children, but to the needs as i perceived them of my husband, as well. Unfortunately, he let me act on those assumptions far too long and between the pressure we  both were putting on him to succeed at every thing he attempted to do, he was suffocating.

What would I do differently now? I hope that by recognizing what happened in that failed marriage I can step down in future relationships and accept my husband as he is, knowing we all have our strengths and our weaknesses, and that perfection isn't possible in this lifetime. It may be easier for me the next time around simply by virtue of the fact that raising children and advancing a career are things of the past in my current age range and more emphasis is put simply on enjoying the companionship of another person who shares the same interests and beliefs.

I also believe it will take someone who is already a very confident and accomplished person in his own right for me to truly feel I can relinquish the reins of control. I have learned that in marriage, I do want the man to preside. It should be a partnership, of course, but at the end of the day I want to lean on my husband and trust in his judgment and abilities.

As a Type A personality myself, it will take someone equally strong emotionally before I can truly relax and turn my life over to someone else. If he takes the lead, I will follow — but if he doesn't, then I will. And in so doing I would lose a little of the trust and respect I want to give him. And the cycle would begin again.

In my opinion, with the gender roles of American society, if the high achiever is male there is a good chance his marriage will work whether or not his wife is a high achiever. However, if the woman is a high achiever, the chances of having a successful and happy marriage are greatly reduced unless her husband also is a high achiever. Unless, of course, the man is just looking for someone to mother him.

KM

You're a perceptive woman, KM. Not everyone is able to accept his or her own role in the deterioration of a marriage — and for you to remain friends with your ex-husband speaks volumes about you.

It seems as though your situation was one of miscommunication. What you thought you said was not what your husband heard.

There is a book on this subject that should be on everyone's bookshelf. It's You Just Don't Understand: Men and Women in Conversation , by Deborah Tannen. This isn't a self-help book — it's a book written by a linguist, whose studies showed that boys and girls communicate differently even before they can speak. I thought I was a smart cookie before I read this book, but it was a real eye-opener. There are so many red-flag words that men and women innocently use when speaking to the other gender that I'm surprised there aren't even more divorces than we already have.

As an overachiever wife myself, I wanted to respond to this dad's letter.  I don't think it has so much to do with whether both spouses are overachievers, but how they respond to and support each other, and ultimately how the overachiever chooses to respond to changes in her (or his) life that bring fewer accolades. 

I was one who went to college early on scholarship, always excelled at everything I tried, performed in front of audiences, and garnered a lot of praise as a youth.  Then after marriage and a quick succession of several babies, who I felt led to be home with rather than out in the public eye, my identity did suffer a little.  I have had some struggle with depression and discouragement as my accomplishments have moved to the home where no one sees but God, and rarely are my efforts appreciated out loud. 

Combine this with a considerable lack of knowledge of homemaking before I began, and the whole experience has been extremely humbling and not easy.  At times my overachiever personality has worn on our marriage, but not for the reasons you mention.  I have never begrudged my husband the attention he gets at work for his accomplishments.  I am sometimes jealous of the chance he gets to be among other adults who see his contributions, but I have always felt that any success he has is a success I can celebrate and feel a sense of accomplishment in as well, because I am a support to him and we are a team.

When I was going through periods of stress and depression, however, my husband would sometimes get frustrated, because I wasn't as happy as he hoped to make me, it wasn't his fault, and he didn't know what to do.  I never have blamed him or been angry with him for my struggles, though.  For me, I knew that the path I took of marriage and childbearing and staying home with my children was the one the Lord wanted me to take. 

I will admit to occasionally being angry at the Lord for the difficulty this transition was for me, and the timing of it (I was married pretty young).  But as I have gone to him with trust that his plan for my life is for my good, he has guided me to see it as a blessing that I can be humbled, learn new things, and learn to find my sense of worth in Him and His love for me. 

It has been up to me to choose to do what is necessary to make peace with the Lord's will for my life and work on my sense of contentment and joy each day.  I have learned to do little things that increase my happiness and sense of accomplishment in my home, such as putting on beautiful music to create atmosphere in my home, and keeping a backward to-do list in which I mark down my little victories each day (making my bed, reading a child a story, showering, etc).  This may sound silly but it helps me see that I did accomplish something at the end of the day. 

My husband has been patient and tried not to take it personally during my periods of learning and struggling, and has always encouraged me to keep developing my talents and to take time for myself and my interests.  When I want to take a class here and there to keep my mind active, he is very supportive and helpful with the kids so I can go.  He knows I will not neglect the family when I do these things, and he enjoys seeing me come home happy and excited about what I am learning. 

The other thing that is very helpful, although maybe it is only an ego-driven need, is to have many words of affirmation from a spouse.  My husband struggles to do this, as he was brought up in a family that rarely used praise, although they are very loving.  But having my husband notice and praise the progress I am making in my patience with the kids, or my meals I make, or anything I may accomplish in the house, makes a big difference. 

Of course, avoiding criticism is also very helpful, as criticism can really wound an overachiever starved for validation.  For a stay at home mom, the only person she can get praise from is often the husband, because the kids take her work for granted.  If the husband doesn't offer praise and gratitude, no one will (except maybe the kids when they are grown). 

In addition to praise and gratitude, I also appreciate when my husband shares his perspective of how far I have come, since, as an overachiever (and a woman) I usually can only see my shortcomings and how far I have to go (like Elder Uchtdorf example in his Relief Society general meeting talk!).

Being shown how much better I am at something than I used to be is a very valuable thing my husband can do for me.  I find I can be very happy and feel good about myself when I am able to see the areas of achievement in my home and family, and I am learning that it is ok to give myself praise for those things, however small they may seem.  I am learning that I don't have to wait for someone to give me a compliment and rely on their assessment of me to feel a sense of worth, although kind words from my husband are very gratefully received and help me feel his love! 

If I spend time with the Lord each day he affirms my worth, separate from anything I may do.  My pride before was based on a false assumption that my gifts were mine, when really they were only God's and I was privileged to borrow them.  Coming to this understanding has been a long and difficult journey, but a good one.  I guess my point is that it takes both people to make a marriage work, and an '”anxious concern for the happiness of one another” as President Hinckley put it, as well as each one's individual relationship with God, and striving for humility, can make any marriage work whether one or both spouses are '”overachievers.”

A.H. in Southern Utah

You give us great reminders, A.H., that we should compare ourselves today with ourselves from yesterday instead of comparing ourselves with others. There's always going to be someone who does something better than we do, but if we just strive to be a little better today than we were last week, we're going in the right direction.

I am that overachieving person.  It doesn't work well to have two Type As in any home.  And if the couple isn't really aware of each others' habits, goals, and ambitions going into it and are willing to and have worked out the compromises necessary, then the marriage can be troubled. 

But I don't think the dissatisfaction without accolades is the real problem in most cases.   So I would want to make sure that my overachieving, smart, ambitious son knew how to be and was willing to be an equal partner in the marriage, child raising, and housework that goes along with it.  And I would want him to have thought through whether he is prepared to put his own career on hold for a while for hers.  Because if he is unwilling to do that, his wife will know that she is NOT number one with him — and my guess is that that is at the root of most of the unhappiness that overachieving wives feel.   In some cases, partners have to be willing to allow each other to live roles that are not recommended, either because it is right for them, or because they have not yet gotten a testimony of what is right for them.

When my husband and I married, he stayed home with the kids because I just couldn't see myself starting over (as I had had to do after my first divorce).   He said that summer with seven kids (all borrowed from others who needed help) really opened his eyes about how little men know about women and homemaking.  A couple of years later I came to understand that I needed to stay home with our four, but without a domestic bone in my own body and with skills that can be used in many different areas and from home, I have managed.  I couldn't have done it if my husband hadn't been willing to accept that I got to make the choice, not him.

Reader Who has Lived It

Thanks for sharing your experience, Lived It. It really helps to be able to make a choice rather than to have a choice thrust on us, doesn't it? God really knew what he was doing when he gave us our agency!

Okay, readers. We have a shiny new topic for next week. Stay tuned — same day, same place — for more thorny questions from Meridian readers.

Until next week — Kathy

“I don't dwell on whether I am an overachiever. After my career is over I will sit down and evaluate what I have done. Until then, all I can do is go out every day and do the best I can.”

Dat Nguyen